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devi ([personal profile] devi) wrote2004-11-25 12:23 pm
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words and music

So, dear readers, here are the ideas behind that genres poll I did last week.

It starts with something I thought would be a confession, a dangerous one of the sort liable to get me lynched or get objects lobbed at my head. Now the results are in, I feel a bit safer saying it. I like dance music.

Thing is, I also love indie music and (a lot of) goth music and all manner of verse-chorus-verse music, music with lyrics that make sense of life, and it doesn't even have to be well-sung or well-played, if the lyrics are good enough to carry it. I like music that's right next door to spoken word performance, where the music takes a back seat to the lyrics, but the lyrics are shiningly brilliant.

This makes perfect sense to me. Music is for different things, serves different functions. Dance music is for, well, dancing to, that sort of hypnotic wild trance-dancing that strips you of self-consciousness and daily worries and leaves you elated. (Hello [livejournal.com profile] ultraruby!) And it's for spurring myself to work - I write faster and maybe better with a pulse of beat in the background, with slowly evolving melodies; lyrics are too distracting. It's music that provides a soundtrack for travelling at speed, or for travelling in your imagination. Music with guitars, by bands, with words, is for something else entirely. It's about that twinge in your heart when you hear a lyric that expresses something perfectly. It's music you live through and feel through, music that helps you explain things to yourself, music that puts you on an emotional rollercoaster from hope to misery and back, or that just helps you laugh at life. Music that provides a soundtrack for walking in the dark or standing moodily down in a tube station at midnight.

I couldn't do without either of these things, even though they're such different experiences it seems clumsy even to call them both 'music'. Fair enough, you say. Eclecticism is good. The poll results seem to bear that out.

But back at Dublin City University it was a different story. I didn't know any other eclectics who liked, say, Orbital as much as they liked Radiohead or the Smashing Pumpkins. You were a rocker or a raver, and the rockers and the ravers tore each other to bits in a perpetual scrap on the music boards of the BBS, and never the twain did meet.

And the divide seems to have persisted among my various groups of friends (or at least I thought it had until I did the poll). I've always felt like the lone advocate of electronica among a nation of trad-goths and indie-kids, and when I try to defend it, I'm told more often than not that it's chav music, stupid music, music for people with no brain cells. I reply that they're probably not listening to the right dance music, that it can have intelligence and complexity, that I like it with the same bit of my music brain that grew up on classical and for a lot of the same reasons (Pachelbel's 'Canon' has much the same effect on me as Orbital's 'The Girl With The Sun In Her Head'). But things remain the same: I have a yen to go to dance clubs and no one to go with.

And it looks like the whole world is going that way too. Alexis Petridis wrote recently in the Guardian that dance music is dead. (Though, if you read the article, I think I'm pleased that he says it's going back underground. I'd prefer little underground scenes to great big impersonal superclubs any day.)

So my poll had several purposes. Firstly, to see if the rocker/raver divide still exists, and to find other eclectics. Pleasingly, there are quite a few of you.

Secondly, to see if my flist was actually as anti-dance as I thought, and it's true that the indie/rock/etc people - those of you who chose no dance at all - vastly outnumber the eclectics and the dance-only folk. But there are more of the latter two types than I'd been expecting.

Thirdly, I wanted to investigate my half-formed hunch that people who liked dance would get along with classical, and vice versa. This wasn't borne out at all. In fact, it was the indie/goth/rock folk who tended to like classical, rather than the other lot. I guess I'm on my own there, then.

There's another post bubbling under in my brain, about what clubbing is for, but that's for another day. Thank you all for ticking the tickyboxes.

[identity profile] barrysarll.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:23 am (UTC)(link)
I'm glad I'm on the side of the angels I worried that ticking everything for 'like' (and OK, it varies how much music within each genre I like, but some of each) but nothing for 'elements you absolutely must have' (because I could think of a few tracks I love which lacked each one) might look like I was taking the p1ss.

[identity profile] ultraruby.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:27 am (UTC)(link)
Hello! Your swimming between the genres sounds very familiar. I have no dancing friends at all anymore, and even when I did have a little band of trance friends, a LONG time ago, they were shunned by most of the other people I knew for having baggy trousers and the like. 'Belfast' by Orbital makes my spine tingle in the same way as the flower duet does. It's simplistic, maybe, but also so complicated. And the fact that there's no words just leaves more room for the imagination - like the difference between books and films; both good, just different.

Oh, and by the way, if ever you fancy a big hand-in-the-air-like-a-scene-in-a-film night out, I'd definitely be interested in coming along. Seriously!

[identity profile] bluedevi.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:28 am (UTC)(link)
No, I think it makes perfect sense to have everything in one and nothing in the other, if you're a true eclectic. For example, the purely indie people might tick 'must have good lyrics', because for them lyrics mean more than any other part of the music. Or purely dance fans might tick one of the musical-correctness-related ones, ruling out all those sweet indie bands who have genius lyrics but can't play their instruments.

The only must for me was the originality one.

[identity profile] bluedevi.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:29 am (UTC)(link)
Hurrah! Hands in the air!

This is another reason I did the poll :) And I love 'Belfast' to tiny pieces too. It's interesting you picked that one to go alongside a classical piece, because what makes 'Belfast' for me is the little samples of Hildegarde von Bingen in it.

[identity profile] ultraruby.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:32 am (UTC)(link)
I was just about to mention Hildegarde! Total classical crossover thing there - much like The Farm and Pachabel.

[identity profile] barrysarll.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:33 am (UTC)(link)
I was tempted by 'good lyrics' because an awful lot of my very favourite music is covered by that, but then I remembered that even aside from the instrumental stuff there are the people whose lyrics you can barely hear (eg Tindersticks), the ones I don't understand much of (Rammstein) and the tracks which are ace but don't say much ("Giving them drugs, taking their lives away" x 100).

[identity profile] atommickbrane.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:36 am (UTC)(link)
I thought goths these days only liked bad trance music anyway. Give me THE DAMMED any day! Or at least Eloise which is BRILLIANT.

(BTW I missed your poll due to busy/office absence else I'm sure I'd rattle on more here!)

[identity profile] miss-newham.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:39 am (UTC)(link)
I liked what you once told me about liking dance music because you first liked classical music (except you put it much better than that). It made me reassess it somewhat and want to start listening to electronic stuff more (where should I start?). Go you and your theories!

[identity profile] bluedevi.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:41 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah... the dance that cybergoths dance to is often lamentably cheesy. At least with The Damned you know you're going to get cheese, but rock-type cheese may well be more tolerable than the brand of cheese a lot of goth-dance bands deal in (usually very earnestly sung lyrics in atrociously bad German-English over twee synths).

I do like a few goth-dancey bands, but most of them are a bit cringe-inducing.

[identity profile] mooism.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:41 am (UTC)(link)
That was why I didn’t answer the poll at all. Answering a poll but ticking everything feels too much like copping out.

[identity profile] mooism.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:45 am (UTC)(link)
Me not liking classical music is currently because I’ve not really been exposed to it. I decided once I was going to try some opera, but never really got round to it (something by Puccini).

Oh yes, and does “opera” count as part of “classical”, or is it a genre in its own right?

[identity profile] ultraruby.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:45 am (UTC)(link)
I used to go out with a classical musician who explained fugues to me, and to me good dance music is kind of like fugues - interweaving themes and stuff. I'd like to know more about how it works; there was a programme on radio one years ago about a certain chord structure (I think it was called desh? Or maybe I'm stupidly wrong there) that somehow creates a euphoric type feeling in most people, and it exists in a lot of classical music, and has been traslated into pop and dance records too.

[identity profile] bluedevi.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:50 am (UTC)(link)
I'd lump it in with classical, personally, though that doubtless betrays my vast lack of understanding of opera. I don't like opera at all. There are a few arias that I love, the bits that actually have tunes, but sitting through a whole opera drives me crazy. It's the way they sing at each other between the big arias, words sung but with no particular melody... what's the point?

I'd rather have them speak those little bits, or sing them to one of the big themes of the opera like they do in Les Miserables.

[identity profile] bateleur.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:53 am (UTC)(link)
Since you're coming out of the closet it's probably worth me commenting that whilst I am generally very much of a rock music person, the vast majority of the stuff that has impressed me of late has been either dance music or other stuff done by people from the world of dance music.

Having grown up in the 80s, this troubled me greatly. Dance music being, of course, t3h 3val ! But now you've said you like some of it I feel suitably reassured.
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[identity profile] gothwalk.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:56 am (UTC)(link)
There was an option missing from your poll: ambient. I'm a very definite fan of ambient music for writing, coding, or anything else that involves a light trance state.

Also, I've not a huge interest in classical in general any more; most of it sounds rather dull after a while. My interests within it are baroque, early music (inasmuch as that's classical, which is to say that it's not, really, but that's where it often lands) and modern classical-style composition, like the Lord of the Rings soundtracks. Much of that lands in the same headspace as ambient, for me.

I'm really looking at about five categories of music, which aren't so much genre as effect. "Sound-but-not-listen" (ambient, etc, as above), "Listen-to-the-lyrics" (Most other music I listen to), "I-can't-hear-that" (Sarah McLachlan), "Turn-that-off!" (mainstream pop and most rap, except Eminem, who's in Lyrics), and "Mosh" (pretty obvious, often crosses with Lyrics).

[identity profile] mooism.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:59 am (UTC)(link)
Ah well, you have more knowledge of opera than I!

[identity profile] bluedevi.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 04:59 am (UTC)(link)
Could you give some example bands for 'ambient'? I have a feeling there's an overlap between ambient and my 'intelligent dance/Warp Records' option (CiM, Clouddead, Animals On Wheels, Telefon Tel Aviv, Ulrich Schnauss, Nightmares on Wax etc etc) at least in terms of effect. Calling that stuff 'dance' might have been misleading, as a lot of it is too slow and dreamy to actually dance to it.

[identity profile] bluedevi.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 05:00 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, and I like your categories/genres! Though what do you mean by 'I can't hear that'? That it's too quiet? That you can't make out what she's saying?
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[identity profile] gothwalk.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 05:03 am (UTC)(link)
No, that I forget there's music on. It seems to enter a sort of nullspace. It's not that I don't like it - I like some of her lyrics, she's got a good voice - it's just that something cancels out. It's not even bland, because bland annoys me; it just has no impact on me at all. Some of Shania Twain's stuff is similar, as is the "Tenor Shtuff", Pavarotti, Irish Tenors, etc.

[identity profile] bluedevi.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 05:03 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah... my next True Confession might be that I get a huge kick of nostalgia when I hear dodgy early-90s acid house music.

But what's the dancey stuff that's impressed you lately?

[identity profile] boyofbadgers.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 05:04 am (UTC)(link)
It's not so much the cheesiness that gets me about goth trance (though that is a factor)(and why is it all so teutonic anyway?) it's more that it's really lame beatwise. There's no snap or funk or groove to the drums *or* the bass. And it's not just the sequencing, the bass and drum sounds used are weak too. It's like 1997 trance with the bottom end diminished to near non-existence.

[identity profile] bluedevi.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 05:04 am (UTC)(link)
Very interesting. I wouldn't be at all surprised if such a structure exists, but I haven't a clue what it's called.
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[identity profile] gothwalk.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 05:05 am (UTC)(link)
I'll take a look through my MP3s when I get back to work; offhand, Orbital, Deep Forest, Jarre, Massive Attack. Often I don't know what I'm listening to by name.

[identity profile] boyofbadgers.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 05:06 am (UTC)(link)
Bbbbut acid house was really good!

[identity profile] bluedevi.livejournal.com 2004-11-25 05:08 am (UTC)(link)
I know exactly what you mean. Part of why I'm not bothered with EBM ('electronic body music'!) any more is that it's ALL got the very same beat, the same regular four-by-four thud-thud-thud in every single song. I started listening to it in 1999 and it seemed interesting then, but when I realised that they were still using the very same structures and that same bloody dull beat three years later I got annoyed.

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